Glue, Wetfolding, Tissue Foil and Purism

[paperz]

Hi,

I read through the whole topic and had a question.

Does purism extend to tools used to assist folding? Example: Using a bone folder to flatten the creases made or using mini-pliers to pull out a corner? Sometimes i use a heavy book and place the model to be flattened on the last page....I did so especially for the Heart Photo frame by Miyajima Noboru as I used a scrapbooking paper 12"X12" and the paper ended up quite thick on some folds.

Till recently I was using only paper and my hands to fold, but now my knuckles and wrist start to ache if i use more pressure to flatten a crease and so have purchased a bone folder

Regards,

[origami_8]

What ever you feel right about is allowed for you. You don´t have to do what others say that is allowed in Origami or not.
Personally I prefer not to use any tools at all because it would be as if I would be betraying myself, but that´s just my personal preference and doesn´t mean that you´re not allowed to use them.

[Darksoul]

Using glue or any other compound on the paper other than water is the same as doping in sports, becuause both of them allow to reach levels that otherwise are not possible. I can relate because I play table tennis at a semi profesional level, and the way to dope in table tennis is by using illegal glues to glue the rubber to the paddle this illegal glues enhance the rubber elasticity and the foam stifness, this mean enourmous amount of spin and speed with no effor or training at all and that's not fair, I train to enhance my game I train hard to achieve greater speed on my own, illegal glues are not an option.

So using glue on origami it's the same thing the models achieve a much more clean look with no effort at all from the folder, so they don't need to think ahead when folding the model to keep the layes from swifthing or to avoid the tips from behaving the way they don't want.

The same goes for any other mean other than water; why do I allow water? because water is neccessary for paper manufacturing there is no way to make paper with the absence of water, since paper pulp comes with water, and besides when you wet fold the model, the model eventualy dries and the water you added goes away but the glue does not, another thing about using glue on origami it's that glue decays faster than the paper and when this happens it starts to taint and consume the paper, thus by using glue on a model you are sentencing it to have an ugly and sooner elderly age.

[Aznman]

Darksoul, are you against MC, tissue foil, ect. ?

I concure with Origami8, whatever you want. Origami is more for personal enjoyment, not personal glorification in the origami world. It is not like everybody who folds is trying to out-do the other person (although it may seem that way). Origami is not a competitive sport (like ping-pong (table tennis)), I don't think you can relate the two. In one, you are trying to beat your opponent, in the other, you are just folding for fun, and you are not competing.

[Darksoul]

I play table tennis for my enjoyment and it's me and my racket agaisnt the ball, I don't want it coming back to me I want it to stay on the other side of the net, when I fold it's me and the paper against my own skill, what I can do, what I want to do, I don't want the paper to rip or to wrinkle.

[Cupcake]

I myself do not use tools, glue, or any forum of cutting device (except for paper preparation. I don't know why...

[Aznman]

Darksoul: in table tennis (which I play), it is not you against the ball, it is you against the other player. You play ping-pong for your enjoyment, and others do as well, if you cheated, then that would take the enjoyment out of it bacause you could win easily.

With folding, you are not competing against anything persay. you can say you are competing against your own skill......ummm.. either way, no matter what you do, there will always be a model more advanced than your skill level, no matter what you do. In most cases, glue is used to make the model look better, fine, do what you want. Glue is not going to help you fold the model (in most cases, not always). Tools just help you a little bit. kind of like using flippers while scuba diving, it helps you along.

By the way, I do not use glues (except for one very unstable moduler), I don't use cutting, and I use the occasional little piece of something to help in those tight spots (you know, like when fold the Ancient Dragon out of 2 CM paper ) lol. If I am attempting a personal record, I don't use any tools, for instance, folding little cranes, I don't use any tools, just me and my fingers (I don't have long finger nails either).

But whatever, do what you want, origami is not a competitive sport, it is an art.

[Darksoul]

I don't expect you to understand the joy of winning a tournament when my mindset is to overcome my own limits if I played to defeat oponents then all of the victories will be void of satisfaction and all of the looses will be bitter, I take every tournament I attend to or every problem that I encounter or any model that I fold to test what I can do and to do better than the last time I tried. I know it is really hard for you to understand that I think that way but it's the way that I see things and to MY standards glue or any other thing used on the paper is doping, that's it.

And I personally like models that are folded just with skill and no other tools, because I believe there is a sense of endearment in those models (it's not like the ones that use tools don't like the models that they are folding) as if that single piece of paper is important enough to be worthy only of their hands, some of them may not be as clean as they should but it still feels as if the folder is proud of achieving that using only her/his hands as if he gave life to a marvel with paper, their hands and some water (I mean paper not foil).

P.S.
I am a recalcitrant jerk.

[Aznman]

Well, I can see how you view things, almost. I don't understand how you play (virtually of course) against yourself. I do however understand the mentality of trying to best your previous records, or best what you think you can do. I participate in speech and debate, so I know the joy of winning. The joy does not come so much becasue you beat the other people, but that you acctually placed, that you did better than you thought you could do.
In this way, I can competly understand the way you view glue, tools, and the like. you want to beat yourself by not using such items.

But enough of this, it really does not matter, as you and I have said, it is up to your personal standards. What works for you, you should do (like the ryme? ). I don't hold this principle outside of the realm of origami though, (it could lead to bad things fast).

In short, do what you want.

P.S. thanks for the cool word, I am going to try and work it into my vocabulary.

[origami_8]

why do I allow water? because water is neccessary for paper manufacturing

In this case your argumentation lecks, because paper also includes a high amount of glue (keyword methyl cellulose), so with your conclusion it would have to be allowed to use glue too, but you say it´s forbidden and water not. Well and cutting is also used in paper production, how else could you end up with perfect squares for folding?
My personal feeling is, that the paper shouldn´t be changed in any other way than folding once you begin to fold your model. Using water would be like adding glue, because you just use the previously added glue (there since production) to help your model stay in another form than you could obtain by only using your fingers, the same for glueing your model together, no need to say that cutting your model would be the worst thing you can do to change your model otherwise than folding.

[Darksoul]

why do I allow water? because water is necessary for paper manufacturing

In this case your argumentation lecks, because paper also includes a high amount of glue (keyword methyl cellulose), so with your conclusion it would have to be allowed to use glue too, but you say it´s forbidden and water not. Well and cutting is also used in paper production, how else could you end up with perfect squares for folding?
My personal feeling is, that the paper shouldn´t be changed in any other way than folding once you begin to fold your model. Using water would be like adding glue, because you just use the previously added glue (there since production) to help your model stay in another form than you could obtain by only using your fingers, the same for glueing your model together, no need to say that cutting your model would be the worst thing you can do to change your model otherwise than folding.

No, the "glue" on the paper is not methyl cellulose, and methyl cellulose it's not part of the paper; methyl cellulose is a compond that is derived from cellulose. Paper is made out of cellulose, hemicellulose and lignin this are all natural chemicals that are part of all plant fibers and wood; what holds paper together is lignin, wich in industrial (and I believe hand made) paper making it's separated from the fibers to create pulp, lignin holds together paper in conjunction with hemicellulose wich helps the lignin to create hidrogen bonds between the fibers and the lignin. When the paper is finally ready the fibers in the paper are held together by these hydrogen bonds and some fiber entalgelment and no other extra binder, all other extra chemicals found in the paper are there only to add quallities to the paper, to make it more shiny or more translucid.

Cutting it's a natural and intrinsic part in paper making, can you imagine yourself folding out of a two ton roll of copy paper? that's about 2 meters tall and it has about 2 kilometers of paper? or in hand made paper folding with uneven edges, well like Dr. Robert Lang showed it is possible, but I am not willing to try it. Since the chinese began paper making they had to cut, and when the egyptians started making paper out of palm trees they had to cut. Saying that cutting paper to useable shapes and sizes it's not pure it's like saying that virus are smart and feel.

I apologize if I was scornful in any point.

[wolf]

Well, in wetfolding, even though you add water to shape it, this water evaporates once the model dries off. So you could also argue that wetfolding is pure in the sense that nothing extra is added to the paper as a whole.

MC folding will be different naturally; the MC stays on the paper even after the water evaporates.

[cavemanboon]

what holds paper together is lignin, wich in industrial (and I believe hand made) paper making it's separated from the fibers to create pulp, lignin holds together paper in conjunction with hemicellulose wich helps the lignin to create hidrogen bonds between the fibers and the lignin. When the paper is finally ready the fibers in the paper are held together by these hydrogen bonds and some fiber entalgelment and no other extra binder, all other extra chemicals found in the paper are there only to add quallities to the paper, to make it more shiny or more translucid.

i am definitely no expert in paper making but perhaps u would like to read the following, especially the part about what happens to the lignin during the paper making process :

http://www.internationalpaper.com/Our%2 ... 0Made.html

and i am sure if u do a google search, u will find lots of info about paper-making, sizing etc etc but for the time being, u may want to read the following :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sizing

if u check the o-list archives, i think u can also find some discussions about paper making, sizing etc.

but the point i want to make is not about the what (natural or otherwise) is or is not added into the paper. origami has come a long way. in the past, designs are relatively simple and one could fold practically any model with most of the papers available to one. (in that sense, things were much simpler and i personally think folding was a lot more fun back then). however, designs have since grown very complex and in my opinion, it is not possible to fold a complex lang or kamiya model and maintain its shape for long without using special papers (which i include foil papers) or the use of MC, PVA or other such stuff. believe me, u don't want to spend hours and hours folding a model and have it unravel some weeks or months later.

in any case, u probably still have to fold pretty neatly and accurately too or the MC etc won't be of much help to u.

I apologize if I was scornful in any point.

it's okay, i used to be pretty scornful too when i was younger ...


sorry if i sound incoherent. i am in a rush ...

[Darksoul]

but the point i want to make is not about the what (natural or otherwise) is or is not added into the paper. origami has come a long way. in the past, designs are relatively simple and one could fold practically any model with most of the papers available to one. (in that sense, things were much simpler and i personally think folding was a lot more fun back then). however, designs have since grown very complex and in my opinion, it is not possible to fold a complex lang or kamiya model and maintain its shape for long without using special papers (which i include foil papers) or the use of MC, PVA or other such stuff. believe me, u don't want to spend hours and hours folding a model and have it unravel some weeks or months later.

.

That's not entirely true, somewhere around in my house I have a Robert Lang Praying mantis that I folded about six years ago out of copy paper, it's the same way; but I don't have my camera right now.

[wolf]

I have a Robert Lang Praying mantis that I folded about six years ago out of copy paper

This is the OIaTK mantis, yes? That's the point that cavemanboon was trying to make - by today's standards, those models are considered old and simple. Many of the models in that book can be folded from kami or copy paper and still retain their shape. You can't quite do the same with the models in Origami Insects II.