The Origami Forum

I have been into Origami for about 9 years now. For a long time Mark Kirschenbaums biplane was the most complex diagram I could find, but now I bought works of Satoshi Kamiya.

I tried the Ancient Dragon right away. Surprisingly I didn't have any serious problems folding it. I was wondering if there are even more complex models diagrammed somewhere?

Well, eventually everyone reaches a certain point where any diagram is a cinch. Diagrams are good for teaching different maneuvers, but once you get acquainted with most of them, there's little more they can teach in that department. They can still give insights to other things if you look close though.

I don't know what more complex diagrams there are. I haven't folded much through my Roman Diaz book but it's holding some pretty complex stuff. Maybe you can work on your presentation of them? I'm positive there's more complex models in existence but perhaps they just haven't been diagrammed yet. Either designers don't have/want to take the time to diagram them or maybe they're just waiting to publish. Who knows.

Either way, you should just spend your time designing your own things while waiting for the next diagrams to come out.

Get hold of Eric Joisel's mask booklet from the British Origami Society, or some of the Vincent Flodderer notes and 'diagrams' that exist.

Kamiya uses complex geometric origami, but that is not the only form of complex origami. It takes a true expert to fold a Joisel-esque mask, and make it look good. Even after folding his basic forms hundreds of times, I'm still learning how to fold it.

Or, if you are so good at folding, get Lang's Origami Design Secrets, and start to design your own work

thank you very much. my 'finishing touches' doesn't look good, partly because i don't pay that much attention to them, partly because of my paper i think. I use some kind of kraftpaper with some sort of plastic on one side, from ikea. it doesn't tear, but as far as i know it's impossible to shape. that book of eric joisel seems like a very good idea, his masks are amazing, and his rat is still one of my favourite models.
and is langs design secrets really a good start to designing my own models?

Niels

Don't be daunted by the price (well, maybe a little), but Robert Lang's Origami Design Secrets is a very good way to get into designing. Also, if you want a challenge, you can try folding from crease patterns.

hey Niels have u folded the biplane? i have folded it and it was a fun expericene

To Fishgoth: Vincent Floderer notes and 'diagrams'? Where can those be found?

yes i really love the biplane. but i had to use a small drip of glue to hold the down wings in place

surprised that no one has mentioned lang's insect book.

imho, the japanese "complex" origami is usually just a very long process, and usually don't incorporate too much of the "hard" stuff (i.e., closed sinks, unsinks, open sinks on closed flaps that you can't really open up). for instance, i can do the lang butterfly from that first book, but doing those repeated open/closed sinks on the pleats of the wings is really irritating and frustrating. similarly, i have done the praying mantis, but doing so without ripping the horns or getting a hole is hard (though i confess i usually just use kami). i still haven't done (though i haven't tried recently) the "sink within a sink" to complete that paper wasps stinger section properly...

surprised that no one has mentioned lang's insect book.

the first or the second one?

I wouldn't entirely agree... I think you described difficulty, which isn't synonomys with complexity... The two can go hand in hand but not all the time. The shell of the sea turtle I designed is a gigantic pain in the butt to fold (closed sinks and lots of layers), but what I'm doing isn't technically complex...
I haven't spent much time with Origami Insects but from the time I have, I can understand what you mean. I think I just have more fun folding other things than frustrating myself with Lang's masterpieces, hah. However, I do agree that would be a great choice for someone up to the challenge.

I don't think Lang's diagrams are that frustrating; it's true, they contain lots of complicate maneuvers, but they are quite a nice challenge. Also, most of them are needed to make the model look good.

However, I have to say that Origami Insects II contains way less of these folds than Origami Insects and their Kin, mostly because of the way he designed his new models. (E.G. no stuff like "Closed sink the flap. This is optional because it is difficult")

Re Floderer 'diagrams' - In one of my BOS booklets / convention packs, there are some hand-drawn crease patterns, although they are more an aide-memoire to him actually teaching. The bases are not really that complex - think iterations of blintz bases. However, it is the art of collapsing that make the models worthwhile.

As to which booklet / convention pack; I'm not sure. They are in boxes in my loft.

Thanks for the info, Fishgoth.