About HQ PaperMaker, Milled Paper and MC...

Galif · Post by **Galif** » September 4th, 2007, 10:20 pm

Hello there ^^''!

I'm a student from Brazil who is very interested in the art of origami, enough to take certain aspects seriously... and one of them is, definitely, the paper.

Choosing the best paper for a certain model is hard and the results may vary so much...! It can be a masterpiece or a disaster depending of the paper one is using... I'm tired of folding very carefully to discover, at the nearly end of a complex model, that the layers won't stand and/or receive any further creases! I don't like using tissue-foil for such models (but I have to, anyway), and it's preparation is very "messy". The final composition will not look as good as it should be...

Handmade papers aren't available where I live... well, they are, but I can't afford them (a washi sheet is TOO expensive here)! The best solution for me is buying online, and I found this store that seems to fit my needs perfectly.

I was looking for a very thin paper and I thought "Milled Papers" would be the best choice (25 GSM). But reading some of the posts here in this forum made me wonder whether this paper is good for folding complex/super-complex models or not (like Kamiya's dragons, Hojyo's human figures).

Will it hold the creases well? Should I buy a thicker paper? Or glueing two sheets of milled paper would be better (without preparing them)?

What about MC? Do I really need to treat that paper before folding it? In that case, can I fold a treated milled paper directly into the model or should I glue it with another treated sheet? A 50 GSM treated paper seems very thick to fold the mentioned models...

Sorry if I asked too much ^^''! It's becouse I intend to buy a lot of paper, so I can't make the wrong decision =P!

Thank you for your patience! I'm looking forward to the answers =]!

Vykintas73 · Post by **Vykintas73** » February 10th, 2008, 3:01 pm

As usual... When very important and straight questions are asked no answers are given...
Many people here say they use special kinds of paper but remain completely silent when asked about it. Is this a world-wide conspiracy or what?

Post by **origami_8** » February 10th, 2008, 4:29 pm

Hi,

It's not that I do not want to answer your questions, I just simply can't.
I do not have much experience on handmade papers. I bought some at a local store but had the impression they aren't really well suited for folding. Maybe I just bought the wrong ones, I can't say. Some where too soft so they didn't hold a crease. Some had thick fibres inside and small holes so you weren't able to fold the one part and had no paper on the other. Other papers I tried seemed too thick for my purposes even if they had only very few gsm. Also the handmade tissue paper I bought was useless for folding.

The best paper I know for folding is two layers of tissue paper glued together with mc. The process how to make this kind of paper is described several times on the Forum.
Tissue foil has its pro and contras but I do not like it so much.

Maybe the store can send you some samples of the paper you want to try, so you can see if it fits your purposes.
Edit: I just saw that they do offer a catalogue with paper samples for free (shipping costs only).

Different people have very different views on what makes a paper good and what doesn't. I know a lot of people that fold with very heavy paper and are happy with it. I always wonder how you can fold with such stuff. Other people are thinking that tissue foil is the best paper around, once again I do not hold this meaning. What is good for you and what isn't is a decision that only you can take.

Vykintas73 · Post by **Vykintas73** » February 10th, 2008, 4:45 pm

Thanks for the comment.
Well, I saw pictures of the foldings of members of this forum. I see from the pictures that the paper is good for the purpose. So I'm SURE people know where to get this paper just because they DID. I know that on one hand the best paper depends on the folder but on the other hand I'm pretty convinced that there is the best paper. As far as I know it has to be washi or hanji that are thin and durable which is the perfect combination. Well, there are many kinds of it and I don't know which is best.
Let's put it this way - I want precise the paper from which Satoshi Kamiya makes his ancient dragon etc. on those videos streaming all over the Internet. I'm sure that the paper he uses is just as good for the others as it is for him (I guess he knows whats best for his origami

). And I'm pretty sure that someone in this forum has to know which paper it is. So maybe one day I'll get lucky enough to get the answer...

JeossMayhem · Post by **JeossMayhem** » February 10th, 2008, 7:34 pm

It's actually been said a few times on the forum that Kamiya uses Origamido paper (it says in four places, but unless you know about Origamido, I guess it's hard to search for). Do a search for it to find out more. It basically is one of the best but you better be willing to pay some big bucks for it.

Vykintas73 · Post by **Vykintas73** » February 10th, 2008, 7:50 pm

Are you absolutely sure about it? That is really strange. Firstly, as I understand Origamido isn't a particular kind of paper but the name of a company which makes origami paper. Secondly, it is in USA, so why for a Gods sake shoud Kamiya use American paper living in a country with oldest origami and paper making traditions? Thirdly, I'm confused with non-informity of the Origamido website. Well, maybe it is good enough for the professionals but not for a newbie like me. I don't find a place there to pick up a paper except a bunch of a handkerchief-size pieces. "Sold in person" does'nt fit to me either being half a globe away...

Post by **origami_8** » February 10th, 2008, 8:09 pm

Origamido paper is known to be the best paper for Origami available. But available is a mistakable term. In fact you only get it in person when visiting the Origamido studios or if you are lucky maybe on a convention. All the batches are unique. You can order a whole batch but that is very expensive. It is not only likely but very certain that Kamiya uses this paper. In his book "Advanced Origami" Michael LaFosse even gives a receipt for the pulp he uses for the paper Kamiya likes the most.

HankSimon · Post by **HankSimon** » February 10th, 2008, 8:16 pm

http://www.origamido.com is one of the best, if not the best source for handmade origami paper in the world. Michael Lafosse learned at the feet at the grandmaster Yoshizawa. There may be other sources, but this is one that the general origami community is aware of. If you email them, or call them, they will try to help you. They may also direct you to other sites that are more appropriate for your needs.

However, I wanted some special 25 cm x 75 cm paper, which I bought from the manufacturer .... the smallest batch was $75 USD... So, we individual and non-professional folders are sometimes at a disadvantage. But I was able to pick up some special handmade frog paper from Origamido for about $8 USD. Also, there are stores in Manhattan, NYC, USA that sell special papers from other sources... but I don't know how to communicate with them about my needs, unless I go there in person.

Finally, the Vietnamese folders seem to have access to a strong, thin wrapping paper, which may not (?) be easily available to the rest of us...

So, most of us don't answer, when all that we can say is , "Sorry but I don't know how to help..."

You could try Sasugabooks and kimscrane to see if they have leads.

- Hank Simon

origamimasterjared · February 10th, 2008, 8:53 pm

Satoshi Kamiya uses Origamido paper. This is paper made by Michael LaFosse's Origamido studio. As you said "origamido" isn't truly a type of paper. Origamido IS truly the best paper for origami, supposedly, if you can handle the price. It is handmade from different proportions of plant fibers, such as abaca, hemp, flax, cotton, etc. and dyed with natural colors. All the papers are strong, thin, PH-neutral and are designed to last "forever". Different works of origami are best satisfied with different papers. For example soft and fuzzy isn't appropriate for most beetles, and at the same time hard and shiny won't work for a giraffe.

As for Kamiya, the story goes something like this: Satoshi Kamiya lived in Boston, studying papermaking with Michael LaFosse for about a year. He wanted to find the best paper for his origami works. He decided upon a blend that he really likes to use. [I can't remember it off the top of my head, but it is described in Michael LaFosse's Advanced Origami, which I
don't have with me at the moment] Robert Lang also has a favorite blend.

The thing with handmade thin papers is that they require a lot of extra work on the folder's part. You almost must infuse the sheet with some kind of sizing, two of the more popular being methyl cellulose (MC) and carboxyl methyl cellulose (CMC). And then wet-folding or at least dry-wet folding (fold the base dry, then wet it).

One of the big things about origamido paper is that is is designed specifically for quality origami use.

There are other really good (and really expensive) papers too: that hanji Robert Lang uses, kozo, gampi, loktas, unryus, etc. But again it depends what you want. Also, they all require preparation. But at least you can find them without having to go to the studio in person.

paperz · Post by **paperz** » February 11th, 2008, 11:13 am

origami_8:

The best paper I know for folding is two layers of tissue paper glued together with mc. The process how to make this kind of paper is described several times on the Forum.

Anna, I had a couple questions about the mc double tissue paper method:

1. How long does this method take...from once its glued to using the paper for actual folding? I know it depends on the climate...but approx. time it takes you.

2. The only glass surface i have is the glass door to my balcony....could this be done on a vertical surface?

Your twelve-headed Hydra is awesome

. How big a paper did you start with?
Thanks in advance,

xaoslord · Post by **xaoslord** » February 11th, 2008, 3:34 pm

Vykintas73 wrote:Secondly, it is in USA, so why for a Gods sake shoud Kamiya use American paper living in a country with oldest origami and paper making traditions?

Quite simply, Origamido paper is arguably the best origami paper out there. If you're not convinced Kamiya uses Origamido paper all you have to do is check out the forward to the "Works of Satoshi Kamiya." In it he thanks Michael Lafosse saying: "Michael Lafosse of the Origamido Studio, who made the sheets from which I folded many models in this book."

Vykintas73 wrote:Thirdly, I'm confused with non-informity of the Origamido website. Well, maybe it is good enough for the professionals but not for a newbie like me. I don't find a place there to pick up a paper except a bunch of a handkerchief-size pieces. "Sold in person" does'nt fit to me either being half a globe away...

Origamido Studios is primarily a commercial art studio. The paper they sale is either left over from whatever project they are working on in the studio, or it is custom made to order. When you make an order for a batch, you get the entire batch, so there are no sheets left to sell from that run. They unfortunately don't have time to make paper for online sales, as this would take time away from their studio projects, origami classes, etc.

If you are unable to go to the studio, as you make friends in the origami community, you may be able to have someone pick up paper for you. Good luck on your quest for paper...

Post by **TheRealChris** » February 11th, 2008, 3:49 pm

I don't use a glass-surface for my mc paper but a thin veneered wooden plate. that wooden plate is very cheap and I bought 5 of it.
the paper should try out very good before folding it. Keep it onto the glass/wood over night is working pretty good.

Vykintas73 · Post by **Vykintas73** » February 11th, 2008, 3:57 pm

Thank you all for the answers and explanations - I appreciate that very much.
Well it seems that the search for the paper is the hardest and most time consuming part of the origami. Strange thing for the modern world but it is. Anyway I'll keep searching. The most difficult thing is to get large sheets (funny how many stores claim selling "large" paper and then you find out is being 30 cm x 30 cm at max...)

paperz · Post by **paperz** » February 11th, 2008, 5:25 pm

Thanks so much TheRealChris! I have always used only color copy paper to fold and want to try this method to fold the Violinist by Hojyo Takashi

Thanks again!

Jonnycakes · Post by **Jonnycakes** » February 12th, 2008, 12:28 am

xaoslord wrote:
Vykintas73 wrote:Secondly, it is in USA, so why for a Gods sake shoud Kamiya use American paper living in a country with oldest origami and paper making traditions?
Quite simply, Origamido paper is arguably the best origami paper out there. If you're not convinced Kamiya uses Origamido paper all you have to do is check out the forward to the "Works of Satoshi Kamiya." In it he thanks Michael Lafosse saying: "Michael Lafosse of the Origamido Studio, who made the sheets from which I folded many models in this book."

Huh, I was under the impression that Kamiya studied with Lafosse and now makes his own paper. It could still be that he makes his own, as his book states that "many" models use origamido paper, not all (it could mean all but Splash!, which uses foil).