Question: Using Large Paper for KAMIYA's Ancient Dragon

Terranova · Post by **Terranova** » May 18th, 2008, 5:50 pm

Hi everyone. I recently got my hands on some paper from a yard-long (91.44 cm) roll of Kraft paper. After my first attempt at the Ancient Dragon (foolishly, with 25 cm American origami paper, resulting in a horribly sloppy model that barely spanned the width of my hand), I realized I needed larger paper. In naivety, and in partial shock of the size of paper I had obtained, I immediately tried folding his dragon with a 91.44 cm cut out square of the Kraft paper.

It ended up horribly. The legs and body were so thick that I could hardly compress them into a respectable shape. The tail was so large and flaccid that even the inside reverse folds on the side kept coming out. The head was so thick and hard to work with that I couldn't even do anything with the head spines - I simply had to leave them pointing out every which way. And the wings were so limp that they simply collapse flat whenever I try to prop them up somehow. Is there something I'm doing wrong? Is it possible that I'm using paper that's too large, or of the wrong quality? Would something like Florist's Foil work better for this model? I also have a roll of that.

On a related note, is there some trick to doing steps 84, 85, and 86 stresslessly? Those steps alone took me about an hour or two, because I simply couldn't open up the paper by pinching the top flap. That extra pleated layer at the top was super annoying, and I couldn't find any way from underneath to open it out.

Sorry for the wall of text. Thanks in advance

JeossMayhem · Post by **JeossMayhem** » May 18th, 2008, 6:22 pm

Yea, I also made the mistake of shooting too big and oversizing my paper when I attemted Lang's black forest cuckoo clock. 90cm square is overkill for almost any model. I'm going to recommend 55-60cm square of a thin type paper, maybe tissue foil if you know how to make it. I also folded the dragon out of a larger piece of a type of Kraft paper, but maybe the kind I was a bit thinner, because it's still holding it's shape. If you don't know how to make tissue foil or haven't experiment with MC (I have yet to), you should consider it, since it will make your life much easier in the end. And besides, the larger your paper is, the more apparent any inaccuracies become. As for Florist's Foil, I don't have much experience with it, but I'm worried it's too floppy as well, and you'll want something a bit more resistant to sagging.

As for those steps you mentioned, try not to worry about them that much. They'll cause problems for anybody unless they have some kind of space age paper only a few attoms in depth. Just work those steps slowly, precreasing hard and delicately easing the lengths of the creases bit by bit. Then, once all the creases are leaning towards the right direction, finish the sink by pushing the whole point in. It might be hard to do it without crinkling your paper, but it IS a closed sink, so noone will see the mess on the inside, hah.

Good luck.

Terranova · Post by **Terranova** » May 18th, 2008, 6:39 pm

Thank You for your help

I think if I wetfolded it, the dragon's shape would have ended up fine, however I'm not sure if that would help the thickness or not.

Florist's Foil is quite interesting. It's a VERY thin foil bonded to a layer of what appeared to be plastic wrap. It keeps shape amazingly well and is easily mouldable, however because of the nature of the foil it can be difficult to reverse creases, which can make sinking a real pain. The layer of plastic can also come unbonded halfway through the model, creating unnecessary layering. I tried making KAMIYA's Divine Dragon with Florist's Foil once and it ended up quite nice. I thought if I removed the plastic layering that I would simply end up with an atomically thin foil which I could make anything with... however it quickly occurred to me that the glue bonding the plastic to the foil was still sticky. The sticky layer was the inside layer, meaning that it was almost impossible to make some sinks and reverse folds because the plys of paper would bond to themselves. On top of that, the foil itself was so thin it would shred in some places where very small, delicate folds for horns and such were necessary. My hypothesis is that if I remove the plastic covering, leaving a sticky layer, then carefully bond it to a layer of Kraft paper, then it will create a superbly amazing medium. Have yet to try it, though...

I've never tried making paper, however interesting it looks. How do you do it?

JeossMayhem · Post by **JeossMayhem** » May 18th, 2008, 8:26 pm

You should be able to find various videos on youtube for how the tissue-foil making process. The terms 'tissue foil' will get you three good results right off the bat. There's also MC and tissue foil threads on the forum but they might be a bit harder to dig out. Wet-folding isn't the greatest choice for complex things, though in some instances it might work. I just wouldn't reccommend it for this particular design.

Tissue foil is really easy to make, but tricky to make really well. You'll probably end up with creases in it but I've found they really don't make any difference when you fold it, and they hardly show up at all in the end. All you need is a well-ventilated area but also can't have a draft, some spray adhesive (or a large gluestick if otherwise), two pieces of tissue paper and a roll of aluminum/tin foil. Maybe some newspaper to shield a desk from glue and something to let the paper dry on afterwards. But I think you'll be very pleased with what you can do with it.

Terranova · Post by **Terranova** » May 18th, 2008, 9:52 pm

Those videos look quite interesting! Thanks again for the tip, I'll try that as soon as I have access to those materials!

angrydemon · Post by **angrydemon** » May 19th, 2008, 2:57 am

Yes, use tissue foil. I've found out that tissue foil can be made in unlimited sizes. Just tape several sheets of aluminum foil together is they're not big enough on their own. The tape hardly makes any difference to the thickness. Then, just cover them with crepe paper (artist's tissue). They come in large rolls and in assorted colors. DO NOT USE TOILET PAPER!!

Kijjakarn · Post by **Kijjakarn** » May 19th, 2008, 1:19 pm

Whahaha!! Nice joke Angrydemon! Using tiolet paper or else with a large size will not make your model in shape correctly unless you attach it with something else. The best way is using the tissue foil, the most famous and the best paper in which folders use.

JeossMayhem · Post by **JeossMayhem** » May 19th, 2008, 3:19 pm

Heh, I wouldn't call it famous. There's lots of other substitutes. You can find higher quality paper than tissue to substitute, but it's the most economic, especially for first-timers.

Joseph Wu · Post by **Joseph Wu** » May 19th, 2008, 4:00 pm

I wouldn't call tissue foil "best" either. I find it a poor choice, really, although sometimes there is no easy substitute. It wrinkles easily, does not reverse fold well, and does not keep its shape well.

JeossMayhem · Post by **JeossMayhem** » May 19th, 2008, 9:35 pm

I find it holds it's shape well if you find a good balance between the complexity of the model and size of the paper. My Bahamut and Ancient Dragon are very rigid, both folded out of 42cm tissue foil, and shaped very well. But I really had to pay attention to the problem with reverse folds, ironing out the pre-existing creases throroughly beforehand. Sometimes I welcome the wrinkles to add a bit of texture, but if your sheet is too big, the wrinkles will become much more apparent on your final product.

mrsriggins · Post by **mrsriggins** » May 19th, 2008, 9:46 pm

Joe,
So what would you recommend instead of tissue foil for big models?

Joseph Wu · Post by **Joseph Wu** » May 20th, 2008, 1:42 am

It really depends on so many things. For wet folding, especially with paste (e.g. methylcellulose) instead of water, it's hard to beat Origamido paper. But that's in very short supply these days. Thin sheets of Korean hanji or Nepalese lokta are also good, as are some types of Japanese washi. But there are so many types of washi, it's hard to know which ones are good for which purposes. Since I don't wet fold much any more, I prefer Zanders elephant hide, but it's no longer available in North America (which is why I ordered 800 sheets directly from Germany). If you're really interested in a detailed discussion of which papers to use for what purposes, check out Michael LaFosse's book, Advanced Origami.

JeossMayhem · Post by **JeossMayhem** » May 20th, 2008, 2:53 am

Yea, I'm fortunate enough to have an art supply store downtown that has a few different patterns of lokta paper, but I wasn't sure if I should learn how to treat it with MC or fold it right away. I hope to use it for my newest product but I am doubting how well it retains it's shape without treatment. It's wonderfully thin for sure, however. Perhaps it makes a good substitute for tissue when with foil?

As for the Ancient Dragon, I still would recommend tissue foil unless you miraculously get your hands on origamido paper or already know to treat tissue with methylcellulose. I have never used a large (50cm) sheet of Japanese foil for anything (I haven't even found a place in Japan that sells it) but I would assume it would work if you found something similar to it, perhaps at Nicholas Terry's site.

godzebu · Post by **godzebu** » May 20th, 2008, 6:50 am

Hey,

I am no Origami expert. However, I made few of these models and tried all kinds of paper to get the best results.

Here is my latest try (I'd say 60+try)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8877661@N0 ... otostream/

Now, in order to be as "practicle" as possible (meaning, using the materials that are most readily avalible around common stores in U.S) I tried this model using normal printing paper, tissue paper, tissue foil, Korean Hanji, rice paper, parliment cooking paper, and even hand made paper.

The sizes I tried was from (inches) 12x12, 20x20, 24x24, 30x30, 36x36, 40x40 and 48x48.

Obviously if you want the best result without too much extra work (i.e. wet folding, C.M, or even glue usage) then go with custome made origami paper, I recommang no less than 26x26 nices if you want the details to come out nicely. However, that would cost too much (spending more than $1000 per batch of paper is too much for me)

I had a great results with using 26x26 inches using presentation paper (you can get them from any office max, office depot stores) of course you have to cut them to square youself, but its not too bad.

The pciture of ancient dragon you see on my flicr account are "spectra duo-finished kraft paper" from amazon.com. It is 48 inces wide and 200 feet roll. So you can make 48x48 inches paper. It has smoothside and bit rough side.. and it folds the crease very well and does not rip easily. I'd say it is more stronger than normal printing paper but weaker than rice paper.

As far as paper being thick near end (and during shaping stage), I recommand wet folding. I did not have too much trouble shaping and molding the dragon as I see fit (as shown in my flikr account). The way I do is using thick paper towel and spray bottle. and phone books.

I wet the paper towel (just little bit) and wrap the leg or head (thick part) and place them inside of the phone book and let it sit for about an hour.

The paper is just damp enough to shape it.

As far as wings are concerned, I just wrinkle the hell out of the paper and position it as I see fit and I spray it with water until it is damp... most of the time it keeps its shape as it dry.

Same goes with the horns and fingers....

I am not one of those people who say "I've never tried it myself.. but It should work" I TRIED THESE TECHNIQUES AND IT WORKS!!! as shown in my photo.

happy folding!

zebu

mroconnell · Post by **mroconnell** » May 20th, 2008, 8:18 am

Way to go, godzebu! That looks great. Thanks for the paper comparison.